The Sync Button Debate, Amsterdam Dance Event 2011

[Ando]

no it is not just about the crowd, there is more to it than "he is getting the job done and people are loving it". Of course the drunken folks that listens to all his podcasts and what not love it. But basically they are getting ripped of their money for getting to hear a fkn podcast on the dancefloor.

But no use arguing they will get invited to play the podcast to fill the clubs night after night and make the owner rich. In the end the average party goer doesn't get the difference.

[photojojo]

The thing that bugs me is when they argue the fact against with the extreme. it's not about ten tracks it's about two, three, maybe four tracks combine those with samples used to construct a set and the sync button is critical for the average human. I'm not saying it's not possible without, just that it's not possible for most without.

I think the best point brought up is that we are on the cusp of change. The line between producer and DJ are getting more and more blurred. We're alos in a popularity cycle where the popularity is high. This brings in the kids that want the instant gratification. This will wain and the more serious of these newbs will become the pros of tomorrow.

The times are changing and they will continue to do so forever. There will be people that don't like it and people that will embrace it. The ones that embrace it will move on the ones that don't will struggle.

[dafe]

I found the discussion rather dry. Can't say it really held my attention for very long (I got 20 minutes in)..they're saying the same things that have been said already. God, they even brought up dj hero (such an old argument... remember the uproar when ps1 had music 2000 aka mtv music maker in the U.S.)

Yes sync and cheap controllers bring lots of kids to the market. the market will get more discerning, skill will become a requirement again (albeit it will be transformed i.e. live production will become the new dj'ing etc.) and this whole discussion will begin again when tools come about that make producing easier.

The most impressive thing is that they managed to talk about this for an hour o_o;

[mostapha]

The most impressive thing is that they managed to talk about this for an hour o_o;

They were being paid to be at the conference. I guarantee they went out for several drinks afterwards, though possibly not with each other. It's amazing what you can talk about for an hour when your boss says, "we'll pay you to show up and not make us look bad…and you're fired if you don't go."

BTW, I gave up at 5 minutes. The whole argument is freaking pointless.

If you want to use it, either be able to sell it or find a client that doesn't care that you do. That rule works for any tool you could possibly use…in any industry.

[dafe]

They were being paid to be at the conference

That explains it. Still, that they could do it for an hour remains far more impressive than anything brought up during that hour (not that I watched it all). At least on DJTT you know it'll be done and dusted inside a couple of posts, and we get pretty gifs and funny videos to entertain us afterwards.

[Nephew]

I just love how they were poking fun at SHM

[ParisCreative]

My two cents. I remember when CD's were just coming into the DJ scene, and everyone was on the tip that vinyl reigned supreme and you could not even scratch with it. Slowly as technology matured the DJ community accepted it.

BPM displays were the ire of many. Many thought the skill of beatmatching was an art, anything less was cheating.

Compressed audio came along, but the audiophiles said no way. As time grew, you started to see CD decks with compressed audio gain traction.

Now controllers are making inroads. VCIs, Kontrol, etc, it's all new tools for creating the mix. Beatgridding at your disposal, effects up the ass to rival some of the best midi equipment out there, cuejuggling to your heart's content... and the sync button if you please.

It's an evolution in music. The DJ should celebrate it to expand their capabilities, and those that don't believe in it can chose not to use it, but for others it's a tool in their arsenal.

[tads]

This is a very well moderated discussion and I am surprised that it only has 250 views.

I was struck by the fact that no one in attendance said that they could actually handle 4-decks without a sync button. It kind of made me want to work harder to really understand what they are doing so well with their 2 or 3 decks, so as to never need a 4 before I start smashing tracks together with a reckless abandon.

Alot of it seems like technophobia, which I see alot among older classroom teachers. It's weird to see it in people less than a decade older than me, but i guess that is what happens when people's worlds are taken from them. I was reminded of out of work steel mill workers in the midwest.

The idea of decreasing the time needed to set up two djs using laptops seemed like a relevant train of thought. I think the future will involve some piece of kit that disregards the laptop altogether, connecting the music to the crowd directly through the dj so directly that it will recall the days of vinyl, while still allowing Dj's to prepare sets that involve all of the advanced manuevers.

[NotSoSiniSter]

Here we go agaaaaaaaaaaain. >.>

I recommend every DJ to pick up a pair of TTs (fuck overpriced CDJs) and learn to beatmatch. Because #1 its fun. And #2 mastering the most fundamental part of old school DJing feels good.

For me, if I'm using midi, I'm syncing. I have much more important things to worry about. PERIOD.

If I'm using DVS or mixing strait up vinyl, obviously on the second one, I'm beat matching by ear. You can't do much with DJing outside of what you can bind to a pair of Dicers, but people that know what your doing will give you respect.

Calling people out for djing in ableton and not beatmatching are a bunch of cunts. Theres a shit ton more to worry about when your mixing in such a way than making sure everything is in sync. And theres a shit ton of cooler things to do with ableton than with some TTs.

People need to move on and get with the times. Case closed.

[mostapha]

…while still allowing Dj's to prepare sets that involve all of the advanced manuevers.

The weird thing is that I've seen very few sets using these "advanced maneuvers" that didn't suck.

No offense to anyone on here…and I'll go ahead and say that I don't consider things like Traktor's Sample Decks an advanced maneuver…people have been doing that with drum machines since the late 70s. People have also been using "hot cues" since the late 70s…that's what doubles and crossfaders were originally for…people can just do it faster now.

Then again…Techno, Minimal, and House DJs have been using 3 and in some cases 4 decks for almost that long as well…so does that really count? I think not.

I mean…Drum Machines were accepted at some point despite facing heavy criticism in the beginning. They were supposed to make drummers irrelevant until people realized that they served a different function: drummers do not keep perfect time…drum machines do…and there are reasons to want each. After almost 40 years of innovation, you know how advanced we've gotten? The machines are a bit better at pretending to be human…if you want them to…which not many do.

The description of that video contained an interesting point that some music snobs (using that term in the most loving way possible) are starting to hate on DJs who aren't perfect. Purpose Maker wasn't perfect…his decks drifted all over the place. It's still kind of incredible at what it was. But, it's a legitimate criticism. Flaming sounds terrible and until I realized something that I had glossed over about Traktor, I was about to switch back to manual beat matching or using Ableton because there were a few tracks that I couldn't make perfect (meaning, not flamming). I figured out what I was doing wrong…and Traktor's cool again. Sweet.

Anyway, I really think that the best thing that could possibly happen to make auto-sync accepted throughout the world is for DJs to admit that just about everything they're doing is possible without it…but that they use it because it's easier. It just is. More tedious, yes…in some ways a lot more annoying. But easier in the moment.

You know what else is easier…open tunings. For those that don't know, Open G tuning for a guitar (for example) is basically where you tune the strings away from the standard so that strumming all 6 strings open will ring out a G chord instead of the dissonant mess of EADGBE (listed low to high because that's how I think).

And there's only one real technique that open tunings open up: playing slide. When your pitches are dependent on a piece of metal, glass, or porcelain wrapped around one of your fingers…you lose a LOT of detail in what chord shapes you can make. If you're not playing single-note parts, that really limits the types of melodies you can play. Open tunings fix that.

Slide players tend to play with multiple guitars in different open tunings so they can play a variety of melodies…and switch them out between songs.

Other people–like Keith Richards–use open tunings all the time despite not playing slide that much. Why? Because a lot of complicated chord shapes get replaced by baring one fret with a single finger…and the differences between major, minor, suspended, diminished, or otherwise altered chords becomes a nearly trivial process of adding a finger or two if the guitar's in the appropriate tuning.

Soloing becomes a bit weird, but its really just memorizing different shapes on the fret board than you use in standard tuning.

In short…open tunings are just easier.

And guitarists like Keith Richards have been arguing for decades that it opened them up to playing more creative parts or whatever. But…well…it's BS. A lot of people play Rolling Stones covers in standard tuning and just deal with having to be more precise with their fingers. It doesn't imbue his guiar playing with more creativity; it doesn't really open up new possibilities; in fact, it's quite limiting because it limits you to playing basically 1 and a half octaves worth of chords instead of about 4.

He uses it because it's easier. And he's still very highly respected for whatever reason…probably that he's part of a band that's a hell of a lot of fun and has written some really good music and happened to get attached to a label with good A&R and good PR…or a few of them.

Auto Sync is just easier if your goal is rhythmic perfection. Computers are just faster at corrections. And even if you're doing a simple 2-deck mix and even if it only takes you 5 seconds to beat-match a new song within the realm of human hearing, that's an extra 5 seconds you could have taken to figure out where the best mix point was and what your next track should be…let alone anything more complicated. For the best…it's nearly trivial. But it's still there.

Is it necessary? No. Absolutely not. You show me a technique that someone used Sync for, and I'll find a DJ who could have done it without sync…though it'll probably be either Jazzy Jeff or Jeff Mills, and I'd bet they'd cover the lot of it.

Is sync easier? Yes. Unquestionably.

That's why I use it.

Well…that and I can't afford top-end CDJs, my X1s feel better to perform on than any of the budget alternatives, and I'd own a MBP and a decent audio interface anyway.

I honestly think that accepting that reasoning and stopping our hiding behind "improved creativity" or other BS is what will help it get accepted.

And I'll be happy to be the first.

I can beat match. I've done gigs in front of people on vinyl…and CDJs…and DVS.

I am mostapha, and I use Traktor's Sync function because it's easier.