Are post fader fx possible in Traktor

[oneapemob]

Great out of the box thinking man !
I bet that with a bit more effort it can be set to also have the equivalent of a sharp fader curve on the cut, to make it scratch action friendly!

[DJ MiCL]

As Promised,

Post fader effects with the cross fader!

Since the volume fader retains full control over the output -- unlike the volume fader method I explain in the video -- it's really a lot less likely to screw up your mix by switching to and from post fader effects mode at the wrong time. In fact, as I will explain further below, there is really no "wrong time" with this method, as long as you are aware that what ever effect you've got loaded in the FX Unit you are going to use as the post-fader-fader (i.e., the Gater) is going to lose its function as an effect as soon as you go into PFFX mode.

Long and complicated, I know, should be worth it if you really want post fader.

Post Cross Fader FX Mode -the mapping-


- This is for Deck A
- X depends on how you want this method to fit in your setting.

Control/Assignment/Conditions/Type/Mode/Value

@The mode enter/exit button (10 inputs and 1 output)

(1)Effect Select/FX Unit X/none/button/direct/Gater
This loads Gater into the FX Unit of your choice when button is pressed.

(2)Effect On/FX Unit X/M1=0/button/direct/0
This turns OFF the FX Unit when first entering the mode to make sure that the Gater won't produce sudden unwanted silence. (For example, when entering mode from a full wet flanger)

(3)FX Button 1/FX Unit X/none/button/direct/1
This activates the mute button.

(4)Effect Parameter 1/FX Unit X/none/button/direct/0
This sets the noise parameter to 0.

(5)Modifier #1/Global/M1=0/button/direct/1
(6)Modifier #1/Global/M1=1/button/direct/2
(7)Modifier #1/Global/M1=2/button/direct/1

The above three together work as a toggle switch for Modifier 1 to toggle from default (0) to ON (1), to stand-bye (2), and then back and forth between ON and stand-bye. We need a stand-bye state because we want the cross fader to control the Gater's dry/wet knob at all times when in post fader effects mode, but not when we are using the FX Unit for other effects.

(8)Effect On/FX Unit X/M1=2/button/direct/1
This turns ON the FX Unit when moving from stand-by to ON.

(9)FX Panel Mode/FX Unit X/none/direct/button/single
This changes the panel mode to single if necessary.

(10)X-Fader Assign Left(*)/Deck A/M1=1/button/direct/1
This assigns Deck A to the left side of the cross fader when deactivating the post fader effects and moving to stand-bye.


(output1)Modifier 1/Global/none/LED/Output/controller range=1to1/MIDI range=0-127/invert and blend unchecked.

@The Cross Fader (6 inputs)

(1)Effect ON/FX Unit X/M1=1/button/direct/1
This turns the Gater on when post fader effects is activated for the first time.

(2)Effect ON/FX Unit X/M1=2/button/direct/0
This turns off the Gater when the fader is moved for the first time after entering stand-bye mode. This could have been assigned to the button, but there is a brief audio burst when the unit it turned off at full right position, which is a likely timing to do just that.

(3)Dry Wet Single/FX Unit X/M1=1/FaderKnob/direct/none(*)
(4)Dry Wet Single/FX Unit X/M1=2/FaderKnob/direct/none(*)
This makes the cross fader control the dry/wet of Gater only when in post fader mode (ON and Stand-Bye).

(5)X-Fader/Global/none/FaderKnob/direct/none(*)
This is the standard assignment for the crossfader. It should be in your mapping by default.

(6)X-Fader Assign Left(*)/Deck A/M1=1/button/direct/0
This deactivates the assignment of Deck A to the left side of the crossfader, when you first move your crossfader with post fader effects ON. Again, this is assigned to the fader not the switch because it's when you move the fader that you really mean to go into the mode.


Notes:

The controls that I marked (*) depend on how you like your crossfaders to work. I gave an example for a straight forward set up (Deck A to the left side of the not-inverted crossfader) but if you're the type that uses the cross fader the other way around, etc... you might need to play around with these values.

I first had a mapping with much fewer programming... However, I kept running into small problems like there would be a brief burst in audio level when turning the Gater off via button. This most likely has to do with the order that Traktor handles things when multiple controls are assigned to one button (because they can't happen all at once). I know I can make a simpler mapping if I were able to choose the order of events, but I guess we will have to wait for NI to feel that's a necessary option for users.

Note that you have to do some mapping/programming of your own to work this into your .tsi. The mapping above makes a button that throws Traktor into post fader mode and then into post fader stand-bye mode. It doesn't get you out of it, meaning, even though the stand-bye mode may feel just as if everything is normal, it's not -- for example, moving the cross fader moves the dry/wet knob and turns off the FX Unit. Who wants that when using a flanger or something...

The simple --yet more programming needed-- way to go about this would be to make a separate "exit button".

Exit mapping example(3 inputs)
Effect ON/FX Unit X/none/direct/button/0
X-Fader Assign Left(*)/Deck A/none/button/direct/1
Modifier #1/Global/none/button/direct/0

This could be mapped to a dedicated button, or you can use a shift+"which ever button you are using for the post fader effects toggle", if you know what a shift button is.

How I would go about it is to make sure that activating any other effect in the FX Unit used in the post fader mode will restore the default settings for crossfader (because that's about all that needs to be done) and change the state of Modifier #1 to whatever it should be next.

If you are the type that uses FX 1 and 3 for Deck A and FX 2 and 4 for Deck B, use another Modifier (#2, perhaps), another FX Unit, and substitute Right for Left and do the same mapping for Deck B. You may need to check or uncheck the invert check box in some controls while you're at it.

If you are the kind that uses all FX for all decks and control the routing via the "Effect Unit On" switch:

Change all controls for "Effect ON" to "Effect Unit X On".
Additionally, create: Effect ON/FX Unit X/none/button/direct/1 (to turn on the effect in case it was off in the prior state)

Then, choose a separate button for Deck B, use modifier values 3 and 4 for the ON/Stand-bye toggle, use the same FX Unit as Deck A, and:
Duplicate everything! But while you're at it, substitute all Modifier Conditions and Values as 0 to 0 (the same), 1 to 3, and 2 to 4.
Additionally, the modifier toggle gets a bit more complicated.

You already have for the DeckA button…
Modifier #1/Global/M1=0/button/direct/1
Modifier #1/Global/M1=1/button/direct/2
Modifier #1/Global/M1=2/button/direct/1

These are the straight forward duplicates for the DeckB button…
Modifier #1/Global/M1=0/button/direct/3
Modifier #1/Global/M1=3/button/direct/4
Modifier #1/Global/M1=4/button/direct/3

But you also need…
For Deck A button
Modifier #1/Global/M1=3/button/direct/1
Modifier #1/Global/M1=4/button/direct/1
and for DeckB button
Modifier #1/Global/M1=1/button/direct/3
Modifier #1/Global/M1=2/button/direct/3

…in order to jump directly from Deck A PFFX to Deck B PFFX.

And finally… remember, jumping is just another way of exiting the mode, so you got to do the exit mapping, i.e.,

For the Deck A button
Effect Unit X On/Deck B/none/direct/button/0
X-Fader Assign Right/Deck B/none/button/direct/1

For the Deck B button
Effect Unit X On/Deck A/none/direct/button/0
X-Fader Assign Left/Deck A/none/button/direct/1


That's it! Go ahead and give it a try.

Really, it's simpler than it looks.

It took me ten times longer type this up than to actually map it.


Piece of cake, eh?


Let me know if you run into problems.

[escapemcp]

As Promised,

I first had a mapping with much fewer programming... However, I kept running into small problems like there would be a brief burst in audio level when turning the Gater off via button. This most likely has to do with the order that Traktor handles things when multiple controls are assigned to one button (because they can't happen all at once). I know I can make a simpler mapping if I were able to choose the order of events, but I guess we will have to wait for NI to feel that's a necessary option for users.
Let me know if you run into problems.

Great post mate. Best mapping tutorial I have read. As simple as it can be and logical.

Has anyone actually tested in what order Traktor handles multiple commands? If you go into the mapping window, after changing logical controllers (or is it when starting program?? )... the commands appear in a list, with the first command you ever entered at the top and the last at the bottom. I (and probably everyone else) then usually sort this list by comment/assigned to/etc so that it makes more sense, and so loose this 'chronological' sort and can not get it back unless I restart traktor or change logical modifier (or whatever it is that I do to get the 'chron'sort).
My thought is that maybe Traktor runs through this chron list to see what it should be doing. Therefore if you map the buttons in the order you want them to be performed in (or maybe even the reverse of this, if Traktor starts at the bottom), and Traktor *may* perform them in the order you want them.
I don't know if this has been covered before, as I noticed there was a video from DJTT, where they used midipipe to put a 2ms delay between 'go to cue' and 'beatjump x beats forward' in order to create an Itch type slicer, as they couldn't put the 2 commands on the same button and get them to work.

Can anyone confirm/deny this. I am going to test tonight anyhow.

Update: Suppose the quick way to test would be to run 2 commands to a button (e.g. go to hotcue 1 & go to hotcue 2), and see if pressing it 10 times comes up with the same result. If the result is the same, then Traktor is following some sort of priority list, that may be able to be taken advantage of without having to use midipipe/bomes et al. If it keeps producing different results, then Traktor IS altering the sequence of commands (maybe it keeps 'scanning' through list - like with button detection on a PIC), and hence my idea is total BS and you should ignore all but the first line of this post - sorry about that

[zestoi]

Update: Suppose the quick way to test would be to run 2 commands to a button (e.g. go to hotcue 1 & go to hotcue 2), and see if pressing it 10 times comes up with the same result. If the result is the same, then Traktor is following some sort of priority list, that may be able to be taken advantage of without having to use midipipe/bomes et al. If it keeps producing different results, then Traktor IS altering the sequence of commands (maybe it keeps 'scanning' through list - like with button detection on a PIC), and hence my idea is total BS and you should ignore all but the first line of this post - sorry about that

i can't tell u about the order things are processed in the tsi but i just did an experiment sending out multiple beatjump events with this midimasher config:

capture("lp", "0,0", ALL, 0, function(d,e,v,p)
    send("traktor", "beatjump_+2_a", v)
    msleep(3)
    send("traktor", "beatjump_+4_a", v)
end)

without the msleep() call in there it *always* jumped 4 beats, not 2 or 6, so seems to use the most recent one it has.

with a delay of 2ms it jumps 6 beats maybe 90% of the time, with 3ms in there it always seems to jump the 6 beats

this code tho to jump to the active cuepoint and then beatjump 4 works all the time without any delay in:

capture("lp", "0,1", ALL, 0, function(d,e,v,p)
    send("traktor", "jump_to_active_cue_point_a", v)
    send("traktor", "beatjump_+4_a", v)
end)

so i think it's more about the type of events that are being grouped together and traktor deciding what we really wanted when multiples come in

i've also noticed some funnies i traktor if it doesn't get a zero/off message for a certain action then it won't repeat the same action for a while after. which makes sense if u think how a controller usually works. when u press a button traktor gets an ON message (127 or something) and then when u release it it gets the zero message.

[DJ MiCL]

>escapemcp
Thanks for the compliment! I was starting to think everyone was like "dude, relax... no one wants that kind of seriousness in DJing...", since there were posts asking for a workaround at the NI forums every other day right up until I posted just that and then sudden silence...

Regarding the correlation of order of action and chronological order of creating the control, I have a feeling that you are on to something. I haven't done enough tests but when I was casually experimenting with LEDs, doing something like (new output 1), (new output 2)...(delete output 1), (new output 1), deliberately making the 2 different outputs conflict, the priority between output 1 and 2 reversed after the "...". Hope this makes sense. However, I also know that there is more to it as well. When I was making the original "volume fader" version of the post fader effects, at one point the button wasn't all-in-one -- I had to press the button once to change the parameters etc.. and then a second time to activate the "ONs" - BUT! when I added more function to the button afterwards, it reverted back into an all-in-one button. I have a feeling there is some-sort-of logical filtering going on there, just not sure yet.


>zestoi
Thanks for the earlier reply, btw... I was really glad I got some response here unlike the NI forum. It seems to me like many members over there mainly reply when they get to point out the poster's shortcomings like "It's already been answered, but.." or "not specific enough. Tell us your system, etc...".

Anyway. I am curious, have you ever compared sending multiple commands via midi masher and assigning a button to do multiple tasks? --because they seem to be two different things to me. From Traktor's point of view, the former is receiving two MIDI inputs at the same time, and the latter is Traktor figuring out in which order to handle the multiple tasks commanded by a single MIDI input. I am very excited about the idea of using an intermediary midi application to bring out the best of Traktor, but am currently more curious about squeezing out every last bit of what Traktor can do on its own

[zestoi]

>zestoi
Thanks for the earlier reply, btw... I was really glad I got some response here unlike the NI forum. It seems to me like many members over there mainly reply when they get to point out the poster's shortcomings like "It's already been answered, but.." or "not specific enough. Tell us your system, etc...".

cheers i guess it's easier for people to complain than to pay any compliment hopefully tomorrow i'm going to add some code using your method to some midimasher functions for controlling effects in traktor. also doing it that way i'll be able to bring the volume fader back to the same point the gater is setting the volume to hopefully so it should be fairly seamless to use.

also i'm working round the issue that usually in traktor if u have 2 instant type effects buttons that the effects unit disables for that deck once u release the first of the effects. quite simple to fix in midimasher code.

Anyway. I am curious, have you ever compared sending multiple commands via midi masher and assigning a button to do multiple tasks? --because they seem to be two different things to me. From Traktor's point of view, the former is receiving two MIDI inputs at the same time, and the latter is Traktor figuring out in which order to handle the multiple tasks commanded by a single MIDI input. I am very excited about the idea of using an intermediary midi application to bring out the best of Traktor, but am currently more curious about squeezing out every last bit of what Traktor can do on its own

i don't think there's any difference at all - if the messages are sent instantly - hence needing to add in the delay between them. if u map 2 different beatjumps to a single button via the controller editor then i'm fairly sure traktor will just use the 2nd one, the same as if midimasher sends in two different messages.

unless it's not possible to map both "jump to active cue" as well as a single "beatjump" to a single button in the controller editor - then i guess there is a difference. i haven't tried that. the only time i tend to use the controller editor these days is to add missing controls in for midimasher to use...

i'm sure you're onto something with the order of items in the tsi being important for some things anyway.

[DJ MiCL]

i don't think there's any difference at all - if the messages are sent instantly - hence needing to add in the delay between them. if u map 2 different beatjumps to a single button via the controller editor then i'm fairly sure traktor will just use the 2nd one, the same as if midimasher sends in two different messages.

I think you're right. Huh... This sort of seems like a fault on Traktor's side.

It seems when multiple controls are activated simultaneously, Traktor:
(1)Tries to do them all, in the order "older controls first"
(2)When it can't handle all, it skips "older controls first" and tries to do the newer ones.

and it seems like a list of commands from older to newer set to a single control in Traktor amounts to a sequence of commands being sent from midi masher with none or not enough msleep intervals. Could you confirm this by telling me whether the "remaining 10%" in your older post resulted in a 4 beat jump as well (not 2)?

The chronological order restriction seems pretty logical, since it probably amounts to a simpler rewriting of the tsi compared to giving us the option to rearrange the order in the manager. But I guess, instead of just "giving up cause you's telling me too much too fast..." a lot of us would prefer there being a greater time lag to complete the sequence of commands when there are more commands mapped to a single midi signal. Sort of an "auto 3 ms delay if no-can-do-simultaneous" function.

[zestoi]

and it seems like a list of commands from older to newer set to a single control in Traktor amounts to a sequence of commands being sent from midi masher with none or not enough msleep intervals. Could you confirm this by telling me whether the "remaining 10%" in your older post resulted in a 4 beat jump as well (not 2)?

yep - the ones that didn't beat jump 6 only jumped by 4 beats - never 2 beats.

it all seems a bit odd to me. i can only presume due to some kind of error trapping/correction so if it finds the two beatjumps mapped to one control, or 2 different beatjumps coming in at the same time (tho still sequentially ofc) traktor tries to do what it thinks u wanted... just a shame that it's wrong

i suppose this way might simplify some complex mappings within traktor - less modifiers etc needed if u can override an existing control? but since no one seems to quite know how/why it processes multiple items this behaviour doesn't make much sense to me.

[DJ MiCL]

Thanks for confirming!

it all seems a bit odd to me. i can only presume due to some kind of error trapping/correction so if it finds the two beatjumps mapped to one control, or 2 different beatjumps coming in at the same time (tho still sequentially ofc) traktor tries to do what it thinks u wanted... just a shame that it's wrong

Hmmm.. If it were as you say, a "trapping correction", it surely is a crappy one. For instance, you can map both "filter reset" and "filter inc default" to the same button, which have different results depending on the chronological order you map them, but literally no one on earth needs because you can do the exact same by one direct-mode button, while you CAN'T get Traktor to do both "FX panel to group" and "Set group FX 1 effect 1 to Delay" which seems more than a reasonable request. And since it will do the second half that it failed to do the first time if you press the button again (unlike the multiple beat jump problem), things just make less sense....


Anyway, great discussing this kind of stuff and will make sure to post update if I find anything good.

[escapemcp]

i suppose this way might simplify some complex mappings within traktor - less modifiers etc needed if u can override an existing control? but since no one seems to quite know how/why it processes multiple items this behaviour doesn't make much sense to me.

Like it. But of course we need a system that works 100% of the time, so really need to get a handle on how Traktor orders commands. Anything that can save those valuable modifiers is a bonus. Never managed to test anything last night, but am going to spend today playing with this. A Sunday of Traktor followed by NFL. Life is good!