Interesting new DJ touch concept

[ctrld]

With all due respect, I think you're seriously missing the point, and have no idea what product development is about.

right. I've only been part of a multitouch UI r&d program at my university for a year or so... obviously I have no idea about these things but my last post really wasn't nice. apologies for that.

I don't want to be misunderstood, so let me be clear before you read the rest: I'm only talking about the context of DJ apps here - not about multitouch UIs in general!

If you don't like using touch screens, no problem. No one is forcing you to use them, and knobs, buttons, and faders aren't going away anytime soon.

I love touch screens. this is why I'm such a hardcore critic of all those systems that have been popping up and getting lots of hype recently. there's a lot of potential in those control surfaces, but nobody's really harnessing it for DJ apps. this project was realised in 3 months only which is insanely impressive, but that's about it. multitouch controllers aren't exactly brand-new, so I naturally expected more.

for some people, this kind of interface is MORE intuitive than hardware controls, and we need to cater to those individuals as well.

do we really? since the dawn of traktor 3, DJing has practically become idiot-proof and the scene has been flooded with stuff so bad, it's not even funny. this might sound elitist, but I liked it better when getting in the game required more effort. it was a quality filter of sorts. you didn't decide to start spinning just because you had nothing better to do and thought that adding the "DJ" prefix to your name will magically boost your coolness - you did it because you were a true music addict and didn't care about anything else. at least that's where I'm coming from.

on the other hand, of course, I love the fact that talented people who couldn't have afforded to start DJing due to financial reasons now have a bunch of powerful and relatively cheap tools at their disposal. but these talented people are grains of sand in a desert of lameness - and the only quality filter left now is the ridiculously small amount of knowledge you have to absorb in order to be able to grasp the power of a digital DJ setup. it's no rocket science, thus IMO reinventing the concept of two decks plus a couple of faders and knobs is a waste of time - especially since the solution shown here actually has fewer possibilities than an actual mixer (example: try cutting the high and low band of the EQ on one deck simultaneously - can't do it even with two hands).

I don't see the purpose behind simplifying something that is already dead simple. why reinvent the wheel when you have the technology to build a hyperdrive? as you said, multitouch controllers will definitely be a popular type of UI in the near future, but if the developers are just gonna reproduce and refine existing stuff to the point where you can give it to a monkey and have it throw together a "perfect" DJ set, what's the point. the whole thing needs to be pushed further and introduce stuff you actually couldn't do before (along the lines of your take on the multi-fx control in traktor, that's exactly what I mean).

[nem0nic]

You make a bunch of weak assumptions here, and your main argument is the controllerist equivalent of "I had to walk uphill in the snow both ways when I was young". Let's start with this...

I've only been part of a multitouch UI r&d program at my university for a year or so...

...there's a lot of potential in those control surfaces, but nobody's really harnessing it for DJ apps.

multitouch controllers aren't exactly brand-new, so I naturally expected more.

See, when I look at your videos, I don't see elegance or efficiency. Some of it is clever to be sure, but mostly I see a lot of that equipment you're using getting in the way instead of helping you be creative. For instance, why have a MIDI controlled spinning platter to manipulate the pitch of a tone when you could use something like a ribbon strip (or hell, a real keyboard) and have much better control over that pitch (and allow for polyphonic use as well)? It looks to be more about the "show" of it than choosing methods of control because of how suitable they are for the task. At that point, what you're doing becomes theater. And that's great, I love that kind of thing. But let's not go pretending that dragging all that shit out somewhere just so you can play a portamento melody and use the beatcutter and gater is the most efficient and creative way to do things. Let's go one further and say that it IS - for YOU - are you really suggesting that everyone else needs to follow YOUR workflow because you deem it superior?

While we're making the theater argument, do you really think standing in front of a couple controllers head bobbing and fist pumping the crowd on a knob twist is really MORE entertaining than someone standing in front of a glowing opaque touchscreen from the future? Just checking...

do we really? since the dawn of traktor 3, DJing has practically become idiot-proof and the scene has been flooded with stuff so bad, it's not even funny. this might sound elitist, but I liked it better when getting in the game required more effort.

You said a mouthfull here. And 20 years ago, when I had only been DJing a couple years and was a little full of myself, I would have agreed with you. I thought things like beat matching were the art of being a DJ and not what they really are (tools to manipulate a crowd). I laughed at users of CD players and people who played a lot of mix services because I considered them "cheaters". What I began to recognize as I got older was that this attitude was from being threatened by new users and new technology. When you have all that shit up there it's like saying "look at how hard I'm working! I need all this stuff to make what you're hearing. It's science!". Of course, when some kid with a laptop and a simple controller walks up right after you and pulls off a brilliant set, you end up looking a little silly. If Ean walked up behind you and pulled off a more interesting set with his laptop and a MidiFighter, that would really make all that stuff seem unnecessary, wouldn't it? And whether you like it, or are ready for it, that is exactly what the near future brings.

...especially since the solution shown here actually has fewer possibilities than an actual mixer (example: try cutting the high and low band of the EQ on one deck simultaneously - can't do it even with two hands).

Another way to look at it is that it has almost ALL of the capabilities of a traditional mixer, without those features taking up any of the interface. If the ability to manipulate more than one parameter at a time was desired, it could easily be added via a gesture or single small interface element (imagine if you could put on one finger, then add the other frequency band by tapping that gesture near it to create a macro of both frequencies. Just a single example). The idea here is that there's some exploration going on in HOW we work with music. Getting caught up in the minutia of a single feature is missing the point. A great parallel to all of this is what's gong on in app development for devices like the iPhone/iPad. I'll be the first person to say that ALL of the available apps out there miss the greater point in one way or another. But I also LOVE the ideas some apps have come up with when they decide to stray a little from the traditional. So if an app isn't perfect on all counts, does that make all of the ideas associated with that app worthless?

the whole thing needs to be pushed further and introduce stuff you actually couldn't do before (along the lines of your take on the multi-fx control in traktor, that's exactly what I mean).

But that change can't happen all at once, because people (like you, apparently) see too much change in one product and that product is a commercial failure. And as far as my multi-FX idea for Traktor, I came up with that idea when I first watched the video I linked to in my original post. I also have some ideas on how to transition a couple of those concepts into a hardware interface. And no doubt those guys were inspired by people like Scott Hobbs, or maybe work by Jeff Hann or Johnny Lee. The kind of work done by these guys is HOW we build the hyperdrive.

[ctrld]

When you have all that shit up there it's like saying "look at how hard I'm working! I need all this stuff to make what you're hearing. It's science!". Of course, when some kid with a laptop and a simple controller walks up right after you and pulls off a brilliant set, you end up looking a little silly. If Ean walked up behind you and pulled off a more interesting set with his laptop and a MidiFighter, that would really make all that stuff seem unnecessary, wouldn't it? And whether you like it, or are ready for it, that is exactly what the near future brings.

now that's an assumption if I've ever seen one. if you've read some of my other posts, you will know that I don't care about the medium a performer uses as long as they kick ass. in fact, if someone pulls of an interesting set, I'll hype the shit out of them even if they do it with their mouse and computer keyboard. I'm way too old for that childish shit as well. I'm just saying that throwing down a seemingly clean mix is not kicking ass in my book, it's the basic skill of a DJ and there's no point in reinventing that part to make it even simpler. you might be correct in saying that my arguments are partly based on my workflow - but how could they not be, of course I'm biased. everyone is! the the reason I use what I use is because pulling off some of the stuff I do wouldn't be possible otherwise. if you give me a controller that makes it possible, I'll be first one to switch - I've done that since the beginning.

See, when I look at your videos, I don't see elegance or efficiency. Some of it is clever to be sure, but mostly I see a lot of that equipment you're using getting in the way instead of helping you be creative.

haha, I'm not going to argue with that. my youtube videos are mostly crap and definitely far from elegant but that's what you get when you only have time to do this stuff a few hours a month, plus it's not like I'm trying to showcase a new kind of technology. I'm just a guy with a bunch of electronics doing his thing. also, at no point did I EVER say my shit was better. so you don't really have a reason to use my material as an argument - it's not like I'm trying to compete with them. but just for the record - there is NOTHING on youtube YET that would showcase even an idea of where I'm going with everything I'm doing. I simply don't have the time to record a demo this complex.

change can't happen all at once, because people (like you, apparently) see too much change in one product and that product is a commercial failure

but that's the entire point I'm making here! I don't see too much change, I don't see ANY change except maybe a step backwards in terms of haptics. I'm sorry. as soon as someone puts out a control software that goes beyond reproducing the stuff we already know, I promise I'll be all over it.

do you really think standing in front of a couple controllers head bobbing and fist pumping the crowd on a knob twist is really MORE entertaining than someone standing in front of a glowing opaque touchscreen from the future?

yep. again, I'm sorry. from a dancer's point of view, I came to the club for the music, not for the lightshow and definitely not because I read some name on the flyer. from a performer's point of view, when I want to have fancy visuals, I invite a VJ to rock with me because they're just that much better than anything I could possibly pull off while making music at the same time. also, a touch screen - no matter how durable - would be too fragile for stage use in my case because I like to get physical with my gear. besides that, I like not having anything between me and the crowd; a huge display is a no-go even if it sits on the table surface and not directly in front of you - because that's the thing with touchscreens, they provide no physical feedback so you really have to stare at them the whole time or you won't know what you're doing.

[nem0nic]

if you give me a controller that makes it possible, I'll be first one to switch - I've done that since the beginning.

These kind of developments are like great for throwing new ideas into the collective DJ consciousness, and I have no doubt that we'll see the kind of interface evolution you would call innovative because of them. No one entity is going to just come out and get everything right. It NEVER works like that.

as soon as someone puts out a control software that goes beyond reproducing the stuff we already know, I promise I'll be all over it.

This is where my head is at as well. I think it's necessary to think about what the best method is to interact with music now that physical media doesn't dictate our interaction with the music. But again, this is a progression. I've seen amazing products fail in the market because they were too different from "the norm". And when that happens, the manufacturer that took that initial risk will shy away from making other risky products. This is another reason why this is an evolutionary process.

because that's the thing with touchscreens, they provide no physical feedback so you really have to stare at them the whole time or you won't know what you're doing.

Generally I agree with you here. But when I watch DJs and electronic artists perform (and I watch a lot), I see them looking down into their gear 90% of the time regardless of what gear it is. Your videos reinforce this as well. Ritchie Hawtin spends as much time looking down into his gear as James Zabelia. Even electronic acts like Kraftwerk and OMD did it years ago. Any member in a band that isn't interacting DIRECTLY with the audience (like a singer or front man) are also spending more time involved in their craft than looking at the crowd. I LIKE the idea that these guys are playing the shit out of their gear (for me) instead of trying to make eye contact. If I'm there, I came to listen - not to try and make goo goo eyes at the artist. And I just don't see a whole lot of variation in "audience interaction" between artists that use things like touchscreens and those that use traditional gear.

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