Top Dj Companies Create Universal Standard
Ok, I must be honest- that title is a little misleading. It is the title I wish we could write if all the major dj software companies joined together to create a common standard for storing track information. Once you have been using one program for a while, a large amount of time and effort gets invested into adding loops, cue points and stripes to those songs. The thought of doing it all over again is enough to keep most djs firmly rooted in place, never venturing out to try new things. This might be good for a market leader but its terrible for the collective market place. If we create an atmosphere where djs can freely bounce back and forth to try out the merits of each system then competition and creative ideas will flourish. Both customers and the companies will win.
Such a system would mean you would never lose:
- Wave form overviews
- Cue points
- Loops
- bpm data
I realize this is not an easy task but its something that will be much easier now than 5 years down the road. Perhaps the existing software infrastructures are too prohibitive but its my hope that this may start the dialogue and really explore the possibility before discounting it. If anyone needs help mediating this process, we are happy to contribute.
In the meantime
People still need to switch between Traktor and Serato right now. I know there are lots of smart software developers out there that read this blog, so if you are interested in working with us to build a software translator that can do the job- drop me a line!
December 17th, 2008 at 10:54 am Quote
Hi Ean,
Great idea man..
What about a developer who would make an ultimate track management app?
An application that would enable you create and manage
Filenames, BPM, Cue’s, Loops, Key, Loudness and Artwork,
a complete workflow solution.
And the write that info to the file so all different apps could read it.
Ableton – Traktor – Serato
I would buy that one!
Grtz, M
December 17th, 2008 at 11:07 am Quote
Hi Ean,
Companies usually work for profit. Check Zeitgeist Addendum.
Open sourcing and open minding maybe are the way.
If I could help you in something, here I am.
(Don’t you believe that I ever will pursuit you with a knife no?)
I feel you like a friend.
Do you wanna play some poker? ;)
God Bless You.
David
…
December 17th, 2008 at 11:49 am Quote
It would be great if some advanced options would be possible, too. Even if some softwares don’t support it.
Like labels for cuepoints or key management…!
Best regards, Patrick.
December 17th, 2008 at 12:09 pm Quote
+ Mixvibes
Id3 could store this data, if it’s possible to add a jpg it should be possible to add other file (universal waveform).
Other data like bpm, key, cue, loops could be stored as a normal cols
bpm
key
cue1
cue2
…
loop1
loop2
…
etc.
So maybe the solution is to use id3 instead of mediabases?
December 17th, 2008 at 12:14 pm Quote
I think ID3 tag should be extended to incorporate all the important info a track needs for good digital djing.
I also believe that software componies are trying to standardize these types of functionality, because it really doesn’t ‘harm’ their software. Users will be more likely to switch between software packages because of different functionality, lay-out, ease of use etc.
I both use Ableton Live and Traktor Pro and it depends on my show which program I will use. For fixed sets and shows I will use Live, but for djing in a club I will use Traktor. It would save me quite some time if I didn’t have to create file info’s twice for new tracks.
I think this development is inevitable since digital djing is really taking off now-a-days.
December 17th, 2008 at 12:16 pm Quote
I was too slow :P
December 17th, 2008 at 12:23 pm Quote
I would like to see something like FREEDB or CDDB being implemented. Why not DDJDB?! :)
December 17th, 2008 at 12:33 pm Quote
Hi,
maybe it just should be implemented in the ID3 Tag… That should be the easiest way!
Imagine also if you could share your Tags with other users like:
e.g.
“The Ean Golden Cuepoint Set for the new Justice LP”
Thats a lil freaky but its a step in the right way I think…
Best regards from Hamburg, Germany
December 17th, 2008 at 3:05 pm Quote
ean, tell me about it. dj software feels like normal software ten years ago. serato is the evil microsoft and everyone is after it it creates proprietary standards wherever it can. however i still cant find the linus trovalds in the dj apps. maybe its you ean as you at least have the ideas… there are open source dj solutions and software that tries to combine different systems into one but either its proprietary or not good enough for the professionals. looking forward for a better future in ten years. until then i fight my way through company jungle and pick what i think is the best solution for the moment…
December 17th, 2008 at 3:30 pm Quote
I am in no way a developer. So my logic might be screwy when it comes to this. But I think that a pretty good solution to this would be an external application. A software or hardware (if for whatever reason needed) that you can load all of your tracks with their respective tags from their respective programs, and the program will be able to read them all fine. Well, that’s cute but doesn’t really get anywhere, so along with it being able to understand and utilize these unique bits of information (I lack the proper terminology, I’ve literally just started tryin out djin/controllerism) it should be able to store these in it’s OWN unique file type. To make this work for all programs, there could be a plugin or something of that sort to be installed into your djing software that would enable it to be recognized and thus utilized.
Basically, A separate software app that acts as a master time clock pretty much, can read and convert/copy file types into it’s own format, with maybe a vst type plugin or patch that would enable the use of it.
Since this would be dealing only with time related data, instead of audio, it shouldn’t be too much of a burden to run along with other apps if needed. And the graphic layout should be minimal, somewhat Ableton inspired to refrain from any unnecessary cpu consumption. Hope that makes some kind of sense.
December 17th, 2008 at 3:38 pm Quote
I forgot to mention that you should be able to setup all of these cue points, loops and whatnot within this application. Because if you set all of it up within it, you won’t have to do so in another application just to bring it back into the master one and have it be sent out again. It could essentially become a new standard that would be cross compatible with all programs….which is what we’re after. Anyway, those are my pennies.
December 17th, 2008 at 3:41 pm Quote
This would definantly be a step in the right direction, this would also be a great first step into other standardisation of other parts of digital djing too.
It would also be wonderful to see the standardisation of jog wheel messages. It is possible to increase the performance of jog wheels exponentially under the current midi spec – however it would take software and hardware manufacturs to step forward together to discuss this in an open forum. There is no need to wait around for the HD midi specification, we can accomplish this sooner than that.
The benefits to both consumers and the industry would be very great indeed, we would certainly see alot more people using midi controllers. One of the biggest things that is holding alot of djs back from midi controlers/software over vinyl or highend cdj’s is that the current midi messages being sent by jogwheels are not good enough to mimic proper vinyl control.
December 17th, 2008 at 4:25 pm Quote
Lovely idea that! all companies joining together ect ect universal format ect ect
BUT I cant see it happening TBH why would a company make it possible to jump to a rivals system at a jump of a hat ? its not good business sense the consumer might pref the rival and jump ship !
Sonk hit the nail on the head if the dream were to come true it would have to be incoparated in the Tags cant see any other way
December 17th, 2008 at 5:05 pm Quote
I don’t agree with this. FREEDB and CDDB have so much info that has false info, it would almost be a hinderance more than help. Especially with personalized cue points, loops, and other info that only certain DJ’s do that make them exceptional.
Completely agree. It would be a simple move if you stop and think about it. Almost all the current DJ softwares store or use information that it stored in ID3 tags. If they got together and standardized which block of info was used for which function, then all of the info could be accessed by each program, regardless of which program you use. They could also improve the ID3 standards to include more info, because it is just an extra chunk of info added to the MP3 itself. I think this would be the way to go!
December 17th, 2008 at 5:57 pm Quote
Using ID3 tags would be ideal but I am not sure if it can be done in that manner. Perhaps things like cue points and loops but I think the overviews cant travel with the file.
in terms of a third party software, the problem with that is new dj software. Each time a new program comes out then the software has to support it rather than the new program just building in a common standard. There fore I don’t think a third party app is the most ideal solution but instead a common standard.
Thanks for the great feedback and ideas guys.
December 17th, 2008 at 6:47 pm Quote
I like the sound of this but as a Virtual DJ user I hope you don’t forget about me and the others out there who use it when you are discussing the possible adoption of any new standards.
ID3 does sound like the best way to approach this – There is a BPM tag available in ID3v2 and maybe freedb and cddb should store this as suggested already by another poster.
With respect to loops and cue points I would’ve thought these were personal to a user so they cannot really be sourced from a global DB but perhaps the comment field could be used to store the info in a way that each application would understand. Some sort of “machine tag” like {CUE1:00:12:45}{CUE2:02:21:99}{LOOP1:00:50:57:LEN:01:02} which would translate to the following:
Cue point 1 – 0min 12.45sec
Cue point 2 – 2min 21.99sec
Loop 1 – 0min 50.57sec Length 1.02sec
December 17th, 2008 at 6:49 pm Quote
Well you could make it work. Basically if you built a program of this kind, it would then have an interface which dj-software developers could implement which would allow them to access and send information to this UltimateDJResourceAppThingy through this interface.
This would mean that if such a general standard app was approved all over, the application developers should only need to implement a connection to this app in their products. Thus when a new program came out, they would be able to easily get along with the program and “our” app wouldn’t have to change.
What I don’t see working, is a software which would gather it’s information from host-programs without their assistance and then try to offer those to other programs. Considering that implementing a practically simple storage interface shouldn’t be that big of a hassle for the actual companies, I believe it might even happen. This is of course if the resourceapp is crazy solid and does what it’s supposed to do.
December 17th, 2008 at 8:33 pm Quote
Well, Mixshare is able to create a playlist that contains all sorts of data.
Maybe this can be a start for some kind of xml-like standard that stores these things.
Only thing that would need to be added is a plugin to all the wonderful apps we use nowadays.
Wow… that would be Utopia.
December 18th, 2008 at 12:07 pm Quote
December 18th, 2008 at 5:29 pm Quote
In this case the point of focus should be the track (.mp3 file for example) not the software.
the info should be added to the rack and the software should be able to “read” those info.
December 18th, 2008 at 8:00 pm Quote
Ya,
I am to knew to this digitial djing thing to really have an opinion. I am still trying to learn and practice everything I can about Traktor Pro…and switching software seems way out of the question because its already out of my price range to buy one, let alone two.
But I do admit the concept does seem logical, and new-aged. The big thing is cross-platform and opensource (or shareware). With Digital djs being as tech-savy as we are, there no reason why the companies shouldn’t be able to meet the needs of the smart customer base.
Good Post…
December 19th, 2008 at 4:24 am Quote
Ian –
One approach could be to create a centralized system that could abstract the data formats of different applications into a common interface to which any DJ application could plug into – a proxy of sorts, basically what Fractal Earth was getting at. My employer produces a product that incorporates this design to manage an entirely different type of data than what we are discussing here but the high-level problem (incompatible data formats) and the solution (abstraction) match up.
There is an open-source audio server named JACK that follows this paradigm as well –> http://jackaudio.org/
A standard would be *much* easier but with companies not exactly wanting to sing Kumbaya with each other – this could be a workaround.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:29 am Quote
Ahh, shoot.
sed s/Ian/Ean/g in my last post.
:)
December 19th, 2008 at 6:38 pm Quote
Well I thought of something different here. You could create a library (.dll in windows and .so in unix) that exports certain symbols (which link to functions). Each function could retrieve a certain information of a given track. On top of that there could be an editor that makes use of this library in some way to edit information for certain tracks. Such a system could make use of ID3 Tags for general informations (that is ASCII based) and advanced information like waveforms. On top of that the API should hold functions for writing the track information.
This is just an idea that came up in me. The problem is that program developers would need to include these libraries or atleast install the application that holds these libraries to use them! So imho a GPL’d library would be the way to go here! Everyone could use the library for free and put his own ideas into it!
Regards, Patrick.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:14 am Quote
ID3 tags that are not suitable because it is limited to the MP3, but dj may apply different file formats (WAV, AIF, FLAC, OGG, AAC, …). Database in XML format is the right solution. Each song in the database uniquely identifies (SHA1 hash function of the music data in files). Thanks to the openness of XML is then possible to add any more text data (BPM, CUE, LOOPS, Artist, Label, …) and binary data (Image, Wave Data, …). When I want to transfer the data to another computer to move music files to another directory to back up the reinstallation of operating system, etc., only to make a backup and restore of a local XML file database. Such information on file in a database can add any program, but can be supplied to download and import for the purchase of songs, or imported from the global internet database. Because each progarm can calculate the BPM and other information differently, for each song in the database was created by default, but each program would be able to add their own value.
128.26
127.83
December 24th, 2008 at 2:23 pm Quote
i think id3-tag way is right. but in version we have now ‘mp3-file’ have not space for wave form overviews… and some apps has some “look” on waveform basics. aaam, cue,loops -maps, bpm standart in mp3-cont are not bad. it will be very usefull…
January 11th, 2009 at 5:10 am Quote
i was trying to get someone to write a script for opening different versions of my traktor home folder based on what version of traktor i was opening. < hard to do…
January 11th, 2009 at 5:11 am Quote